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Post by (LK) on Apr 29, 2004 19:09:06 GMT -5
so that's how people don't use their brain ;D! Silly me, you do know that most body functions such as blood pressure rely on the brain though, right? anyways, that's, that's kinda off topic though.
Yeah, i should of realized you would of kept the baby even if would of got raped and stuff, but not everyone feels the same way about you Lauren
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Post by Alicia on Apr 29, 2004 20:08:11 GMT -5
I mean not to bash Lauren.. But quite honestly, she's 14. Not capable of giving a child care, and if she was raped, there's absolutely NO WAY she'd be mentally able to keep a child under that circumstance. I know someone who was raped...Didn't get pregnant. EVerytime someone brings up rape you can see her shudder. It's sick, and scary as all hell. Someone our age could never love a child under those circumstances. I'll argue this until I'm blue in the face and my fingers fall off from typing. It isn't possible.
Anyway, lauren will believe what she does, as will I, no matter what arguments are made. But, just because you have sex doesn't mean you're ready to ahev a child. Sex is a pleasurable thing, shared (hopefully) between two people in love. I plan on having sex on my wedding night. Dont most people? i don't want to get pregnant that night though. If I were to get pregnant now I doubt I'd abort...though a whole hell of alot of that is up to Bryan. I'd probably give it up for adoption, though I know how faulty that system is.. Doesn't mean i wouldn't stick by Bryan for the rest of my life, just means I'm not able to take care of myself.
Laurn, you're the same person who said gays shouldn't have sex because sex is for reproduction. You still believe that's the only purpose? I think when someone is mature enough to handle sex, that's when they should be sexually active. Safely of course. But if you're safe it obviously means you arent ready for a child, therefore shouldn'tbe penalized if an accident occurs. And first trimester abortions, the child isn't alive. It's the same idea as when you eat a store bought egg. There's a chick in there sure, but it isn't a chick yet, just cells.
I bring your teen bible into it since all of your opinions sound like Christian brainwashing. But that's your right. that's the reason i don't have any belief in god any longer.
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Post by (LK) on Apr 29, 2004 20:14:11 GMT -5
I agree with Alicia, some over Lauren's ideals do sound a bit christian... nevertheless, she pretty much said everything i tried to say, sort of, except for the part where the friend got raped, mine only cut themselves
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 30, 2004 14:49:48 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]"I mean not to bash Lauren.. But quite honestly, she's 14. Not capable of giving a child care, and if she was raped, there's absolutely NO WAY she'd be mentally able to keep a child under that circumstance."
[/glow]Who are you to tell me that I am not mature enough to raise a child? What are you saying that I'm a liar and I really wouldn't keep the baby?Because I would.
[glow=red,2,300]"I think when someone is mature enough to handle sex, that's when they should be sexually active. Safely of course. But if you're safe it obviously means you arent ready for a child, therefore shouldn'tbe penalized if an accident occurs. "[/glow] 1.) Sex= Kids.(i'm not saying all the time) 2.) If you are mature enough to have sex, than shouldn't you be mature enough to accept the consequenses? [glow=red,2,300] "And first trimester abortions, the child isn't alive. It's the same idea as when you eat a store bought egg. There's a chick in there sure, but it isn't a chick yet, just cells."[/glow] Eggs that you buy at a store are unfertilized. [glow=red,2,300]"I bring your teen bible into it since all of your opinions sound like Christian brainwashing"[/glow] Well I'm sorry if murdering babies is against the ten commandments.
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(LK)
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Post by (LK) on Apr 30, 2004 16:06:29 GMT -5
but aren't the first few commandments against the 1st admendment of the united states? evidenceI also copied and pasted it because i felt like it ONE: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’ Any laws based on this would violate the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, wouldn’t they?TWO: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’ Another violation of the 1st Amendment, I think. THREE: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’ Uh oh, I think this would be in conflict with that pesky 1st Amendment. Hmmm...do I detect a trend here? FOUR: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’ Ditto: violation of the 1st Amendment.FIVE: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ Good idea certainly, but I can’t think of any laws based on this one. Heck, I recall hearing of several lawsuits by children against their parents.SIX: ‘You shall not murder.’ OK, this obviously is a potential inspiration for some important laws. So, we’re at one out of six. SEVEN: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ Certainly the basis for legal action (divorce), but I don’t think there are too many laws on the books anymore that make adultery a crime. In fact, some adulterous acts might even justify murder, wouldn’t they? EIGHT: ‘You shall not steal.’ OK, so now we’re at two out of eight. NINE: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’ Hmmm...I suppose this could be the basis for perjury, depending on the exact circumstances. To avoid bias, I’ll count this one - that makes it 3 out of 9. TEN: ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.’ Isn’t this the basis for our capitalistic society - coveting our neighbors possessions? Isn’t that what companies exploit when marketing their products? Hardly something to be outlawed, I would think. So, there we have it - only 3 out of 10 Commandments seem to provide inspiration for our laws. I have to wonder, is there any evidence that these three Commandments served as the basis for English Common Law, on which our legal system is supposed to be based?please don't make me post up the 1st admendment too
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Post by SuperBassX84 on Apr 30, 2004 16:50:40 GMT -5
LK - Your argument is moving more towards separation of church and state and away from Abortion.
Lauren - Sex does not = Kids. Oral and anal sex can't get your pregnant, so your argument doesn't exactly hold water. That and being mature enough to have sex and being mature enough to raise a child are MILES apart. Sex is often a recreational activity done for fun by two consenting (and often loving) people, adults or not. Children consume your life, your money, EVERYTHING. They are a joy, but are also a heavy burden. Someone doing something for the pleasure of it while taking proper safety precautions should not be forced to deal with the consequences in the event of a fluke.
For instance, let's say you decide to bungee jump. Obviously jumping off a bridge without precautions would result in death or severe injury, but with the bungee cord, you're mostly safe. The odds of an accident are slim.
However, you jump, and the bungee cord breaks. You break your legs and spend the next 3 months recovering in a wheel chair. Then a doctor comes to you with surgery that will allow you to walk again. By your reasoning, you'd turn it down, because you knew the risks of bungee jumping and you accepted them and jumped anyway. If you can honestly say that you'd turn them down, then I'll believe two things.
1 - You really would keep the kid. 2 - You're dumber than I thought.
-=Waits for a reply=-
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(LK)
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Post by (LK) on Apr 30, 2004 17:12:13 GMT -5
bass> I was trying to explain on how just because the bible says that killing is wrong that abortion is wrong/should be illegal that not everything it says should be taken as seriously, mainly because some of the commandments are against our own admentments, one of the most important ones for that matter.
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Post by Alicia on Apr 30, 2004 21:49:11 GMT -5
Bravo Bass, I like your arguement. Give the man some points Bass! Wait, what?
::give Bass ten points::
I'm THAT good;)
Anyway, that's the meaning I was trying to get across.
Who are you to tell me that I am not mature enough to raise a child? What are you saying that I'm a liar and I really wouldn't keep the baby?Because I would.
It's not me trying to say you aren't mature enough to raise a child as a mean statement. But Christ, you're still a child yourself. Don't get all defensive cause then i get all pissy, and that's never good. I'm not calling you a liar, but I think you'd have to be raped to know what you'd do. Talk to some people who've been raped. Get their ideas on the matter. There are VERY FEW people capable of keeping a child concieved by such a gruesome act. I don't think older women could... Older CHRISTIAN women.
You know what else is against the ten commandments? Saying you hate your father, know how many times you've said it? Know what else is against the ten commandments? Saying Jesus Christ, I've heard you do that as well. Know what else? Working on a Sunday. You aren't supposed to do shit on a Sunday.
Sorry LK I realize you posted this stuff before me, but I'm trying to relae it to Lauren in her own life.
Whatever, her opinions are her opinions, ignorance, comes from the unwillingness to listen. My grandmother is ignorant. She thinks they should MAKE everyone worship god. Won't listen to a word saying otherwise. My father is about that dumb as well. I'm not calling you dumb, but as I listen to your opinion I strongly encourage you to consider different circumstancs.
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Post by (LK) on Apr 30, 2004 22:09:36 GMT -5
We both had the same goal/thought in mind ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/549948/images/eIMQnuwERxqvJ0liYgfQ.gif) , no problems here, besides your's was a little better because you used stuff that relate to her life, while mine... Let's just say i never met her ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/549948/images/QNICkmsxRMbizhF0RVal.gif)
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Post by thor on May 1, 2004 0:10:11 GMT -5
Exodus is the book that tells of the formation of a national group from a collection of slave laborers in Egypt. Joseph led the children of Israel into Egypt to escape famine in Canaan. Moses led them out hundreds of years later to escape what had become bondage and abuse under the Pharaohs. A forty-year journey to the Promised Land included a stop at Mount Sinai where Moses received the Law: The Ten Commandments.
These Commandments came at a time when the Israelites were gelling as a people, which would represent God to the world. Hundreds of years in the polytheistic culture that was Egypt had no doubt dulled their sensitivity to the one true God: YHWH. As a tribe of nomads, living as one large community, they needed some basic rules of conduct and a belief in a higher power than Moses who would enforce them.
The Ten Commandments given to Moses are these: (abbreviated form)
1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.
2. You shall not make a graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain.
4. You shall not break the Sabbath.
5. You shall not dishonor your parents.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not commit perjury.
10. You shall not covet.
Many Christians will say that the You shall nots are too negative and that we need to be more positive since the revelations and teachings of Jesus. These ten teachings are not the old clothes of Judaism, but have been relevant to human relationships throughout the ages.
1. The first Commandment forbids us to put anything before God. It applied to the Jewish people then as the gods of their neighbors often tempted them: The Baals and the Asherah poles. It applied to Germany sixty years ago where god was a god of racial purity. It can apply to us in our modern world where acquisition is the god of the day. God is demanding that first of all, we give Him prominence.
2. Commandment number two includes an explanation in the expanded version found in Exodus 20. It describes the types of images that might be made andyou shall not bow down to them nor serve them. No image of God will ever be found in a Synagogue and the Romans were astonished to find no statues in the Holy of Holies when they destroyed the temple in 70AD. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. The wholeness of God cannot be captured in a picture or statue. God will not tolerate images, which might replace Him as an object of worship.
3. What does it mean to take Gods name in vain? Its an attitude problem. Many use Gods name daily because they have a poor vocabulary. Gods concern here is with respect for the name. Gods very name represents who he is; His power, nature and character. It is a powerful name and should be spoken with respect. To take Gods name in vain is to discount His position and authority.
4. Some of the Commandments can be turned into positive statements: Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. There are whole denominations that have been created over interpretations of this command. What is its purpose? In the circumstances where it was given, to a nomadic agricultural society, one could work every day. 24/7 is expected of the ambitious today. Maybe there is a natural rhythm to life where we need one day out of seven to recuperate and rest for the next six days. This commandment has protected workers from unscrupulous masters for centuries. The day of rest was originally Saturday. The early Christians decided to use Sunday. St. Paul said that we shouldnt judge each other over Sabbaths. We need to take one day off per week. Its good for us.
5. Honor your father and mother. This commandment has a promise attached. that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. Family is important. If we continue honoring our parents through our life, our children will see us and hopefully get the message. It is one key to an orderly society.
6. Do not murder. Did God have to say it? Murder must refer to people taking the law into their own hands and killing. It cannot refer to war or capital punishment. These are dealt with elsewhere in the Bible. The Children of Israel waged great wars in Gods name. This commandment refers to our personal responsibility for the death of others. It is a rule for the individual.
7. What does adultery mean? It means what it always meant; cheating on your spouse. Jesus carried it one step further when commenting on this commandment. He said, whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matt.5: 28) In our age of easy access to sex, the commandment applies to much that goes for entertainment in the year 2000.
8. Do not steal. We all know what that means and we dont rob the bank or the supermarket. Where most of us need help is in the gray areas like income tax returns, lotteries and expense accounts.
9. Perjury is usually translated as false witness. When were called to testify in court we are asked to swear on a Bible that we will be honest. What is the value when so many today do not even believe that the Bible is Gods word? To be caught lying in court is perjury. The ancient Hebrews answered to judges and I expect that this injunction meant more then and helped the judges to administer justice. Gossip and slander must fall under this heading.
10. Do not covet anything that is your neighbors. This is greed and envy, focusing on what others have and what we dont have. This is the one commandment that is hardest to obey. We see things every day that we want. Its the basis of our commercial society. Create a need then fill it. is the lesson taught to new salespeople.
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Post by (LK) on May 1, 2004 0:50:39 GMT -5
i know what the commandments are and mean Thor, but what kind of arguement are you trying to make here?
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Post by FFVImaster on May 1, 2004 7:34:34 GMT -5
I fully support abortion. If someone doesn't think that they can create a healthy environment for a child, they shouldn't have one. The population growth rate is way too high. People are bringing children into this world that will live lives of misery and despair. And a fetus is not a thinking being. It is only alive because the mother is keeping it alive. I don't consider fetuses to be children. Probably (and this is a guess) most people who have abortions cannot support a child and would abandon it anyway, and children who are adopted as babies usually are tormented and want to find their real parents. I am fully aware that this is not always the case, it's just an example. If I offended anyone, I sincerely apoligize.
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on May 1, 2004 10:12:13 GMT -5
there is nothing that says "you shall not abort your baby" in the bible. My opinion is based on whats morally right. If you have sex because you think you are "mature enough to handle sex" and get pregnant, and abort than you were not mature enough to handle sex you were "well I thought I was, but I geuss I just liked to have sex, and didn't really look at some of the consequenses, but luckily I won't have to deal with them because I can always abort the child." I mean I'm not saying outlaw birth control, or any thing because I highly doubt you will get pregnant if you you use Patch,or pill AND condom at the same time.(possible buy unlikely)I am saying outlaw abortion unless someone was raped and or incest.(or if it will kill the mother) Teens are having sex, and using abortions as birth control. A girl here (jamie Metzger) had many abortions before moving to another school.I think that is wrong. Many of them don't even bother to use protection at all. You are being irresponsible if you abort. You did this, and you want the baby to pay. What do you have to pay? You don't have any chance of life taken away from you if you have sex. What did this baby do to you? Make you a little fat tired, and cranky (girls) ?But being pregnant won't kill you, or anyone else. Abortion(pardon my stupid cliche here) "stops a beating heart."
People complain about the war, and american casualties, but more babies die each year from abortion than soldiers in iraq.
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Post by Buddha on May 1, 2004 11:29:01 GMT -5
I 2nd that Lauren!!
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Post by DarkAngel on May 1, 2004 11:38:25 GMT -5
Very well stated Lauren. I 3rd that.
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Post by Alicia on May 1, 2004 12:46:13 GMT -5
The point I keep trying to restate is that some people do use protection. Just because you don't want to have sex young doesn't mean other people shouldnt, if they're safe.
Even if they aren't safe, you aren't just punishing the parent, you're punishing the child. what if the parents have no money? no health care? Children can suffer much worse than being killed before they've actually been alive.
I still stick by the idea that if someone is safe and somehow gets pregnant the option of abortion should be open to them.
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Post by Static Burn on May 1, 2004 13:07:33 GMT -5
I think that 'people just want to have sex without worrying about children' is total crap. People have to be able to accept responsibility for their actions. I may find it enjoyable to fire a pistol in random directions, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't have to pay the consequences when I shoot someone.
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(LK)
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Post by (LK) on May 1, 2004 14:08:39 GMT -5
I fully support abortion. If someone doesn't think that they can create a healthy environment for a child, they shouldn't have one. The population growth rate is way too high. People are bringing children into this world that will live lives of misery and despair. And a fetus is not a thinking being. It is only alive because the mother is keeping it alive. I don't consider fetuses to be children. Probably (and this is a guess) most people who have abortions cannot support a child and would abandon it anyway, and children who are adopted as babies usually are tormented and want to find their real parents. I am fully aware that this is not always the case, it's just an example. If I offended anyone, I sincerely apoligize. ] I totally agree, now that takes responsiblity, it's like.. Okay, i keep making this reference and it's just... sickening.... but okay here we go-AGAIN You have a dog, very old and she's really close to dying, best thing to do is to kill dog to put it out of her misery, before you know it, she has puppies, well you already know that neither you or the dog could possibly nurture the pups, so what do you do? You shoot the dog and drown the pups, without the mother the pups will die, and the mother is very close to death, there's no where for the pups because you live in the middle of no where, so you drown the pups saving them a world of misery do you see on what i'm trying to get at here? Life isn't always a choice, sometimes the best choice is death, death is not always a punishment, sometimes it can be your savior, it can save you from a world of pain, believe me it does agree with me or not, i don't care, flame me or not, i still will stand strong on my opinion, though just because i stand strong on this opinion doesn't mean i can't see any other points of view, if I were against abortion, i would post a link to something like this make sure you watch the movie, though that movie is an exageration of abortion, whether you agree with it or not is not my problem, believe me, look at apekiller's sig "life is not certain, death is" just because you bring a kid into this world does not mean he or she will survive, there are just a number of genetic diseaes he or she could have that would make his or her life a living hell, some won't even let the kid live past 14, do you want that? A kid that won't live past 14 so you'll only have nightmares of his or her precence? No, trust me you don't, only until you live through the experience can you really state your opinion on rape, i'm not going to go into that again, but my mom's a foster parent, and i've seen ALOT of homeless kids, some never get adopted, if maybe they would of aborted this woulnd't of happened, i don't know, things happen, look at your so-called "virgin mary", yeah what about that? I don't care if i'm seen as a Satanist, Athiest, Goth, Nazi, baby-killer, whatever, i'm just trying to stress the fact that sometimes the best choice is abortion, even if it means killing a life, you could be saving it, would you rather have your child aborted or be punished by death on the eletric chair or needle because of your horrible parenting? You tell me
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Post by devo2 on May 1, 2004 14:17:32 GMT -5
I think that 'people just want to have sex without worrying about children' is total crap. People have to be able to accept responsibility for their actions. That may be a valid point, but the problem is that the person that suffers more than anyone else is the child. By ending legal abortions you are condemning an unborn child to a miserable life. If the mother and father are not ready/able to support a child, what kind of life is that child going to have? By making abortion illegal you are destroying two, maybe three lives. I could care less about the parents' lives at that point, they were stupid enough to get themselves into trouble. But the child is innocent and I feel it is better to not bring a child into the world than to bring them into it at a disadvantage. Also, do you really think that women who want to get abortions are going to stop having them if and when it becomes illegal? No way. It is a big enough deal to someone to make it worth it to break the law. What will happen is that there will be a transferrence from safe, legal abortions to coat hangers and crack doctors. Real good idea.
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(LK)
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Post by (LK) on May 1, 2004 14:19:56 GMT -5
THANK YOU DEVO! Finally, those are just some of the other points that i was trying to make or probably forgot, just because you want to have sex mean you'll have to accept the idea of having a child, if that meant so then i'll probably end up like Marilyn Manson or something.
edit: btw, devo did you click on that link i posted? It says something about coat hangers
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