Post by Elfie on Jul 20, 2004 18:23:28 GMT -5
I just had the most interesting conversation with Greenmaster, and eM member, in which I think we ended up agreeing. I want to see what your thoughts on it are, so here goes:
Greenie: what are your poltiical views currently anyways
Matthew: I don't know.
Matthew: They change based on circumstance.
Greenie: ah ic. no fixed positions or beliefs then? d
Matthew: I subscribe to soem right-wing policies and some left-wing policies depending on which one seems that it will do the most good.
Matthew: *some
Matthew: Usually I lean left though.
Greenie: ok then.
Matthew: Or centrist in Canada.
Greenie: left right, both suck.
Matthew: ...okay...
Greenie: yea, right wing policies do, and left wing policies try to reform capitalism so that it works for the people, not for profit, which is an impossible task.
Greenie: but i be ranting.
Greenie: lets talk about sommat else
Matthew: Sure.
Greenie: ok. what part of canada do u live in
Matthew: Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Matthew: The prairies.
Matthew: Where do you live in Great Britain?
Greenie: me, essex. chelmsford, just 25mile from london
Matthew: I see.
Greenie: yup.
Greenie: reading the stinking great article?
Matthew: I was.
Greenie: ok.
Matthew: I checked the bottom of the page for sources, found none and stopped.
Greenie: ah ok.
Greenie: yes that is one of those articles weak spots.
Greenie: anyway that article was just a swipe at capitalism, i can find you better ones but can't be bothered to be honest. look around urself.
Matthew: Okay.
Greenie: oks.
Matthew: So what exactly are your economic policies?
Matthew: Should money not exist?
Greenie: there is some very good stuff on there, its a matter of finding it tho, most of it is just observations of society, which don't need sources, the statistics are from the UN and WTO and the rest, they DO exist, somewhere. and the accusations against america, completely true.
Greenie: money serves no purpose, it is not required. it shoudl go, it is the method used by the capitalist class to exert a profit from the workers, taht is all
Matthew: So you prefer bartering?
Matthew: Or just sharing everything?
Greenie: sharing. "from according to their ability, to according to their needs". this world can produce enough food for 36billion.
Matthew: Okay, that's fine for food. What happens when two people want the same thing?
Greenie: like what? the same house? no-one will own anything, common ownership will previal. people will simpyl share all things.
Greenie: and there will be no shortages, once it is fully up and running.
Matthew: How do you share everything?
Matthew: I mean, what if there is something with a limited quantity that everyone wants?
Greenie: u just do.
Matthew: What do you do then?
Greenie: name that "thing", if it is a car, people take turns with it, it is called sharing, we can do it.
Greenie: there will be no major shortages at all, everyone will have equal access, no questions asked.
Matthew: How about the ring I give to my wife when we get engaged? Do I need to share that?
Greenie: nope.
Matthew: What if there aren't enough rings to go around?
Greenie: that is a personal thing, no need to share that, you are simply being illogical with that.
Greenie: there will likely be enough to go around, there is a hell of a lot of gold out there.
Matthew: And who will mine all the gold?
Greenie: miners....
Matthew: And why will they choose to mine for gold?
Greenie: because they want to, if they wish to mine gold, they will. anyway, most of the labour that is dangerous will be replaced by machines, and gold is not a necessity in life, so people will not have to work down the mines. people iwll haev to farm tho, society iwll accept that.
Greenie: it will be no dictatorship.
Matthew: What if everyone wants to be a doctor as opposed to a farmer?
Greenie: not everyone will, we can't all be doctors.
Matthew: Well of course not, but let's say more people want to be doctors than we need and less people want to be farmers than we need. What then?
Greenie: think about it, there are 6billion peopl eon this planet, and in 20 years time, 2% of them will be able to produce enough to satisfy all peoples needs on this planet.
Greenie: some people are natural born farmers, it takse a lot to be a doctor, and we will have more or less the same amount as we do now.
Matthew: Are there natural-born plumbers?
Greenie: i suspect so yes, heck, people will most likely work in a rotatory basis, some time spent in the fields, some time doing building work, it will be a much nicer society to work in, you don't have to work yourself to death to survive.
Matthew: What if they don't want to spend time in the fields?
Matthew: Or doing building work?
Matthew: Or counting how much grain was produced in the last harvest?
Matthew: Do we make them, for the good of society?
Greenie: you truly underestimate man. man will do those things, becaue he will know that by doing so society will benefit more, heck, you work in the fields you continue to live like aking as it were. no enforcement at all. if people don't want it, it wont happen. the onyl way it WILL happen would be througha mass revoltion, where the entire owrking class is motivated to go socialist.
Matthew: What if I want to sit on my butt and do nothing?
Greenie: then you get scowled at and you will get Forking bored out of your lazy ass skull.
Matthew: But I still get to share everything with everyone?
Greenie: yup.
Matthew: And what if I want to aspire to more?
Greenie: to more what?
Greenie: to greater thing sin life?
Matthew: What if I don't want to be doomed to just being another faceless worker benefitting society?
Matthew: Yeah.
Matthew: What if I want the history books to have my name in them?
Greenie: all peopl ewill be recognised, no nameless faces at all. all people are equal, no more leaders.
Matthew: So then how do I make myself stand out?
Matthew: How do I feel special?
Matthew: How do I make my mark?
Matthew: What's the point in trying to be anything more than I already am?
Greenie: there is no point, you can never be any greater as such, but by working well in society, by being a model member, you will be recognised as a good citizen, heck all these notions of grandeur will go, they are relics.
Matthew: And when everyone who knew me, who knew I was a model member of society, is gone and dead, what then?
Matthew: Do I just fade?
Matthew: Not even a memory.
Greenie: no, people will be remembered, all peopl ewill.
Matthew: I could've never existed.
Greenie: people will be truly important in socialism.
Greenie: you could have never existed in capitalism and truly you would be lost to history, but in socialism we are all rulers.
Matthew: I disagree.
Greenie: ok..
Matthew: In socialism we're all grains of sand, and no matter how hard we work, how much strength we muster against that fate, we're doomed to disappear, until we're only remembered as just another person.
Matthew: Even if we build the pyramids together, each person if still inconsequential.
Greenie: you just described reality in capitalism.
Greenie: how about if we create a veritable paradise?
Matthew: It won't be any different in socialism.
Matthew: At least this way I can be known for something.
Matthew: I can be special.
Greenie: would you really want to be though.
Matthew: Yes!
Matthew: That's my goal.
Matthew: To make a name for myself.
Matthew: A good name.
Matthew: I want history to remember me.
Matthew: Why?
Greenie: you can do that in a socialist world as well.
Matthew: Because I think I'm smart enough to deserve to be remembered.
Matthew: Not as another worker who helped the cause.
Greenie: what are your poltiical views currently anyways
Matthew: I don't know.
Matthew: They change based on circumstance.
Greenie: ah ic. no fixed positions or beliefs then? d
Matthew: I subscribe to soem right-wing policies and some left-wing policies depending on which one seems that it will do the most good.
Matthew: *some
Matthew: Usually I lean left though.
Greenie: ok then.
Matthew: Or centrist in Canada.
Greenie: left right, both suck.
Matthew: ...okay...
Greenie: yea, right wing policies do, and left wing policies try to reform capitalism so that it works for the people, not for profit, which is an impossible task.
Greenie: but i be ranting.
Greenie: lets talk about sommat else
Matthew: Sure.
Greenie: ok. what part of canada do u live in
Matthew: Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Matthew: The prairies.
Matthew: Where do you live in Great Britain?
Greenie: me, essex. chelmsford, just 25mile from london
Matthew: I see.
Greenie: yup.
Greenie: reading the stinking great article?
Matthew: I was.
Greenie: ok.
Matthew: I checked the bottom of the page for sources, found none and stopped.
Greenie: ah ok.
Greenie: yes that is one of those articles weak spots.
Greenie: anyway that article was just a swipe at capitalism, i can find you better ones but can't be bothered to be honest. look around urself.
Matthew: Okay.
Greenie: oks.
Matthew: So what exactly are your economic policies?
Matthew: Should money not exist?
Greenie: there is some very good stuff on there, its a matter of finding it tho, most of it is just observations of society, which don't need sources, the statistics are from the UN and WTO and the rest, they DO exist, somewhere. and the accusations against america, completely true.
Greenie: money serves no purpose, it is not required. it shoudl go, it is the method used by the capitalist class to exert a profit from the workers, taht is all
Matthew: So you prefer bartering?
Matthew: Or just sharing everything?
Greenie: sharing. "from according to their ability, to according to their needs". this world can produce enough food for 36billion.
Matthew: Okay, that's fine for food. What happens when two people want the same thing?
Greenie: like what? the same house? no-one will own anything, common ownership will previal. people will simpyl share all things.
Greenie: and there will be no shortages, once it is fully up and running.
Matthew: How do you share everything?
Matthew: I mean, what if there is something with a limited quantity that everyone wants?
Greenie: u just do.
Matthew: What do you do then?
Greenie: name that "thing", if it is a car, people take turns with it, it is called sharing, we can do it.
Greenie: there will be no major shortages at all, everyone will have equal access, no questions asked.
Matthew: How about the ring I give to my wife when we get engaged? Do I need to share that?
Greenie: nope.
Matthew: What if there aren't enough rings to go around?
Greenie: that is a personal thing, no need to share that, you are simply being illogical with that.
Greenie: there will likely be enough to go around, there is a hell of a lot of gold out there.
Matthew: And who will mine all the gold?
Greenie: miners....
Matthew: And why will they choose to mine for gold?
Greenie: because they want to, if they wish to mine gold, they will. anyway, most of the labour that is dangerous will be replaced by machines, and gold is not a necessity in life, so people will not have to work down the mines. people iwll haev to farm tho, society iwll accept that.
Greenie: it will be no dictatorship.
Matthew: What if everyone wants to be a doctor as opposed to a farmer?
Greenie: not everyone will, we can't all be doctors.
Matthew: Well of course not, but let's say more people want to be doctors than we need and less people want to be farmers than we need. What then?
Greenie: think about it, there are 6billion peopl eon this planet, and in 20 years time, 2% of them will be able to produce enough to satisfy all peoples needs on this planet.
Greenie: some people are natural born farmers, it takse a lot to be a doctor, and we will have more or less the same amount as we do now.
Matthew: Are there natural-born plumbers?
Greenie: i suspect so yes, heck, people will most likely work in a rotatory basis, some time spent in the fields, some time doing building work, it will be a much nicer society to work in, you don't have to work yourself to death to survive.
Matthew: What if they don't want to spend time in the fields?
Matthew: Or doing building work?
Matthew: Or counting how much grain was produced in the last harvest?
Matthew: Do we make them, for the good of society?
Greenie: you truly underestimate man. man will do those things, becaue he will know that by doing so society will benefit more, heck, you work in the fields you continue to live like aking as it were. no enforcement at all. if people don't want it, it wont happen. the onyl way it WILL happen would be througha mass revoltion, where the entire owrking class is motivated to go socialist.
Matthew: What if I want to sit on my butt and do nothing?
Greenie: then you get scowled at and you will get Forking bored out of your lazy ass skull.
Matthew: But I still get to share everything with everyone?
Greenie: yup.
Matthew: And what if I want to aspire to more?
Greenie: to more what?
Greenie: to greater thing sin life?
Matthew: What if I don't want to be doomed to just being another faceless worker benefitting society?
Matthew: Yeah.
Matthew: What if I want the history books to have my name in them?
Greenie: all peopl ewill be recognised, no nameless faces at all. all people are equal, no more leaders.
Matthew: So then how do I make myself stand out?
Matthew: How do I feel special?
Matthew: How do I make my mark?
Matthew: What's the point in trying to be anything more than I already am?
Greenie: there is no point, you can never be any greater as such, but by working well in society, by being a model member, you will be recognised as a good citizen, heck all these notions of grandeur will go, they are relics.
Matthew: And when everyone who knew me, who knew I was a model member of society, is gone and dead, what then?
Matthew: Do I just fade?
Matthew: Not even a memory.
Greenie: no, people will be remembered, all peopl ewill.
Matthew: I could've never existed.
Greenie: people will be truly important in socialism.
Greenie: you could have never existed in capitalism and truly you would be lost to history, but in socialism we are all rulers.
Matthew: I disagree.
Greenie: ok..
Matthew: In socialism we're all grains of sand, and no matter how hard we work, how much strength we muster against that fate, we're doomed to disappear, until we're only remembered as just another person.
Matthew: Even if we build the pyramids together, each person if still inconsequential.
Greenie: you just described reality in capitalism.
Greenie: how about if we create a veritable paradise?
Matthew: It won't be any different in socialism.
Matthew: At least this way I can be known for something.
Matthew: I can be special.
Greenie: would you really want to be though.
Matthew: Yes!
Matthew: That's my goal.
Matthew: To make a name for myself.
Matthew: A good name.
Matthew: I want history to remember me.
Matthew: Why?
Greenie: you can do that in a socialist world as well.
Matthew: Because I think I'm smart enough to deserve to be remembered.
Matthew: Not as another worker who helped the cause.