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Post by omeguz on Apr 6, 2004 13:49:40 GMT -5
lauren - Welcome to THE CONCLAVE
Now - this goes for all of you: The problem with a debate forum is that tempers (and Pinata) get hot. I feel the air getting a little...tense...in here, maybe because Bass passed gas again, but probably because it's tense. Keep it clean - no flaming.
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 6, 2004 18:18:09 GMT -5
I change my mind again. The definition of marriage is as follows : The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife. We can't change the definition. What we should do is change the civil unions to have the same rights as straight people's marriage.
That's my new opinion
And Alicia: Why do we have condoms? There is only one use for sex. To Make offspring. The definition of sex was twisted and perverted through time to mean something toatally new. I mean you don't see dogs having sex (not that I am comparing us to dogs) Just for the hell of it. So I think that one theroy of mine about why two sexes were created still stands.
Also alicia your wrong civil unions can adopt they have all the same rights.
On April 26, Vermont Governor Howard Dean signed a landmark bill allowing same-sex unions in his state. The bill, which was given final approval the day before by the state legislature by a vote of 79-68, allows gay couples to form "civil unions" that provide them with a wide range of benefits previously available only to heterosexual married couples. While an amendment to the bill defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman, the civil union legislation is viewed as a breakthrough for gay rights. The legislation was precipitated by the Vermont Supreme Court's December 1999 ruling that homosexual couples must be granted the same protection under the law as married heterosexual couples.
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Post by Alicia on Apr 6, 2004 18:41:24 GMT -5
Which is the whole reason for debate. Oy! All the privledges, all the stuff that accompanied civil unions it's all gone. That's what's getting people so upset. And the changing of the thing I wrote isn't funny Lauren. Be mature...The debate forum is supposed to be realitively serious....And you're the one who seems to be having so much problems with gay marriages. Denying them the same rights you'd get just because you aren't gay.
(No need for comment on that Morb;) )
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 6, 2004 18:45:54 GMT -5
The prez can't change what the supreme court says. ( I hope) But you know... This Country is all about voting and the majorities say they don't want gay marriage. (I can get the statistics if ya want.) So It's not whats right... It's what the people want.
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Post by kemykal on Apr 6, 2004 18:55:33 GMT -5
There is only one use for sex. To Make offspring.
im sorry, but you cannot deny that it is used for pleasure as well. there is physical stimulation that bombards pleasure sensors. its scientificly proven. this pleasure motivates many people to have sex. you seem to be religious, but completely ignoring carnal pleasure is moronic even if you disagree with it. i have had sex many times and i can assure you that i do not have that many kids.
there are also health issues with males that constitute having sex/masturbation on a regular basis instead of doing it merely for reproduction. many studies have shown that at least one ejaculation a month greatly reduces the risk of prostate cancer.
there is also the emotional appeal to sexual intercourse with a loved one. such an intimate act with a person you love greatly strengthens the bonds of the relationship and increase the level of happiness in the household, leading to greater health emotionally and physically. if you think otherwise, you are greatly misled in your views of sex and life in general.
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 6, 2004 18:59:32 GMT -5
Uh huh yeah.
See thats exactly what i am talking about. Sure it may be pleasurable but is that the purpose? Nooooooooooooo.
It's like a pen. You can stick it up your ass, maybe you'll like it ( i haven't a clue) but it's purpose will still be for writing. It doesn't change.
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Post by Alicia on Apr 6, 2004 19:08:24 GMT -5
The prez can't change what the supreme court says. ( I hope) But you know... This Country is all about voting and the majorities say they don't want gay marriage. (I can get the statistics if ya want.) So It's not whats right... It's what the people want. that is quite possibly the most ignornant thing I've heard said Lauren. Slavery was supported by quite a majority, do you think that's right? It's not fair. A majority doesn;t matter. The Bill of Rights was made to protect ALL Americans, black, white, gay, straight.. ALL! you know why a majority thinks it's wrong? Cause George Dubbya and his Christian friends think it's wrong. Know why? They aren';t gay. You can't sit there and say gay people choose to be gay cause we all know that's not true. Who would choose that kind of lifestyle? Straight people are basically saying they're more deserving of those freedoms, those rights because they aren't queer. And kemykal has a point. You can;t tell me the only time in all of your life you'll have sex is when you're trying to have a baby.
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Post by kemykal on Apr 6, 2004 20:04:57 GMT -5
Uh huh yeah. See thats exactly what i am talking about. Sure it may be pleasurable but is that the purpose? Nooooooooooooo. It's like a pen. You can stick it up your ass, maybe you'll like it ( i haven't a clue) but it's purpose will still be for writing. It doesn't change. whose purpose? your purpose? my purpose? "God's" purpose? you do with things what you want. the purpose of trees is to produce vast amounts of oxygen and balance the ecosystem. so that means you should not cut them down for paper, firewood, and shelter. right? if i want to stick a pen up my butt, who are you to deny me the right to do so? it serves its purpose to me. it does its job, whatever i want its job to be. i can write things in my feces as well. it serves its purpose.
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 6, 2004 20:45:59 GMT -5
whose purpose? your purpose? my purpose? "God's" purpose? you do with things what you want. the purpose of trees is to produce vast amounts of oxygen and balance the ecosystem. so that means you should not cut them down for paper, firewood, and shelter. right? if i want to stick a pen up my butt, who are you to deny me the right to do so? it serves its purpose to me. it does its job, whatever i want its job to be. i can write things in my feces as well. it serves its purpose. kemykalThe purpose. ok. Who determines any purpose?I don't know! Hell I don't even Know if god exsists! The natural purpose for sex is to produce offspring.Thats why animals do it, and yes humans are animals. Hey... who detemined the purpose for a tree? me? you? god? The tree has a multipurpose. You may say "well so does sex!" But that is not true... because other animals besides us, only use it for one. Sure animails don't make paper... but they don't have the technology. Also research has shone some pigs collect twigs before a rainstorm in effort to make shelter. The definition for purpose is " A result or effect that is intended" not to do whatever you want it to do. I never said you couldn't stick a pen up your arse. I was only using that as an exsample. @ alicia Good argument I agree that was ignorant of me. Also: That may not be the only time I wil have sex, but that doesn't change the purpose. I am not arguing that I will only have sex for "producing offspring", I am saying that no matter how pleasurable sex is, that is NOT the purpose of sex, and that one reason outside of religion that bieng gay is wrong is because two sexes were created for a reason, or else there would be only one. More evidence that civil unions can adopt: In New York, most adults over 18 are eligible to adopt children; a person cannot be denied qualification as an adoptive parent on the basis of sexual orientation or marital status. Adoption can be done by contacting an adoption agency or privately through a lawyer. In both cases, a social worker will need to conduct a home study to ensure your home is suitable for a child, along with interviewing you and your partner. You and your partner will also need to go through a certification process involving a criminal record check to ensure neither of you has been involved in child abuse or neglect proceedings, and if so, to ascertain the circumstances surrounding these proceedings I found that at www.civilunions.com
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Post by kemykal on Apr 6, 2004 21:31:22 GMT -5
you are defining sex by nature's purpose, but since nature cannot be completely defined, since we do not know the true extent of human nature, you cannot say that pleasure is not in nature's design. the tree example was used because it paralleled with your definition of purpose.
Also research has shone some pigs collect twigs before a rainstorm in effort to make shelter.
funny that you mention that. research has also shown that pigs are the only other animal other than humans that recieve pleasure from orgasms. funny how that works out.
The definition for purpose is " A result or effect that is intended" not to do whatever you want it to do.
again, intended by whom? nature's law? ive been over that. i intend to recieve pleasure from sex, so therefore sex has multiple purposes. because i have sex and i reach said result.
That may not be the only time I wil have sex, but that doesn't change the purpose.
but why else would you have sex if not to reproduce? physical pleasure perhaps? emotional stabilitiy? honestly, im curious why you would do something that clearly doesnt produce its intended result.
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 6, 2004 21:58:44 GMT -5
but why else would you have sex if not to reproduce? physical pleasure perhaps? emotional stabilitiy? honestly, im curious why you would do something that clearly doesnt produce its intended result. First- Hey Never Knew that about pigs. Second-Did I say no one should do anything outside it's purpose? No. It's just one reason to defend that one reason outside of religion that Gays are wrong. Which is because two sexes were created for a reason. If "the creator" [if there is one] intended peeps to be gay why wouldn't they have just made one. Also-" you are defining sex by nature's purpose, but since nature cannot be completely defined, since we do not know the true extent of human nature"... ect. Actually you can define nature. The definition is " The material world and its phenomena" and the definition of human nature :The sum of qualities and traits shared by all humans.
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Post by kemykal on Apr 6, 2004 22:39:50 GMT -5
ok, now name all traits and qualities shared by all humans.
waiting...
thats my point. a dictionary will sum it up for you, but what it specifically is is not in any book.
Did I say no one should do anything outside it's purpose? No.
then why do you consider it a valid point against Gay marriage/sex?
If "the creator" [if there is one] intended peeps to be gay why wouldn't they have just made one.
perhaps there is more than one purpose to existence in general other than reproduction. like love. also, we still have artificial insemination, or homosexuals could have sex with the opposite sex strictly for reproduction while still having sex with thier partners for emotional/physical pleasure. this supports my idea of sex having different purposes. a man having sex with a man can have a diffent purpose than that same man having sex with a woman. my point is that sex and existence in general can have more that the single purpose of reproduction.
thats my point on sex. as for gay marriage, using the idea that reproduction is the sole purpose of existence is ludicrous. because there is no way to prove that it is. my theory actually supports that there is a higher being giving greater meaning to life than mere survival.
*sigh* i dont think you quite understand what i am saying. and sadly i dont think you will. i guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Kodyn on Apr 7, 2004 8:52:30 GMT -5
The whole point of nature, and whether we are meant to live to reproduce, is moot. Sure, scientifically, all species live simply to reproduce, and thus homosexuality is counterproductive, but what in our society isn't? As a species, humans take art in a great many things that aren't in our basic nature. Computers, medicine, any technology basically...none of these things are natural, and shared by other species...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make sue of them, does it? Humans are evolving, just like anything else. Besides, gays are a great benefit to society. Ever hear of overpopulation? Gays adopt more than anyone else, and while they are now having more children than they have in the past, they still made an impact for the time when they weren't reproducing much on their own. And I believe,(saw this in Newsweek or something, and don't quote me on it) that children raised by homosexual parents are statistically happier, or something along those lines...not sure.
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 7, 2004 9:19:19 GMT -5
The whole point of nature, and whether we are meant to live to reproduce, is moot. Sure, scientifically, all species live simply to reproduce, and thus homosexuality is counterproductive, but what in our society isn't? As a species, humans take art in a great many things that aren't in our basic nature. Computers, medicine, any technology basically...none of these things are natural, and shared by other species...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make sue of them, does it? Humans are evolving, just like anything else. Besides, gays are a great benefit to society. Ever hear of overpopulation? Gays adopt more than anyone else, and while they are now having more children than they have in the past, they still made an impact for the time when they weren't reproducing much on their own. And I believe,(saw this in Newsweek or something, and don't quote me on it) that children raised by homosexual parents are statistically happier, or something along those lines...not sure. "Sure, scientifically, all species live simply to reproduce, and thus homosexuality is counterproductive" This is all I am Saying!!! I consider it a valid point because Alicia challenged me to come up with reasons outside religion. I was trying to prove it Science- wise but all you guys are doing is " Well yes that is the purpose, but...." and try to not make it the purpose. Well no matter what you do the main reson sex is exsistant is to reproduce. Have you guys ever been to a 7th grade science classroom? It's one of the basics. It may come across this way... but I am not against gays. Only gay marriage. My uncle ronnie and orlando are gay! The only reason I don't like gay marriage is because you can't change a definition of a word after hundreds of years. Thats why I want civil unions to have the same rights as marriage. Also I never said we were here only to reproduce. I believe we are all here to serve god... blah blah blah... lol. You think children reaised by homo sexuals are happier? Think again. Like I said The majority of the population doesn't want gay marriage. A kid in my inclusion class, Heather Bailey had a lesbian couple adopt her... they had to move because of all the hell she was getting. See, like me and Gemma we just repeat the crap our parents fed us over the years. I do get what your saying, but you don't get what I am. I was only stating a reason why gays are against the way things outa be. I am not saying this is why we are here, i am not saying it's not pleasurable, or that gays are harmful and poison little children!!!
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Post by SuperBassX84 on Apr 7, 2004 9:57:27 GMT -5
What was that about "our own little Kerry" ;D
I'm pretty sure it was Dolphins, not Pigs, but I could be mistaken. I do know Dolphins had sex for more than reproduction, though.
There are many purposes to sex, not just reproduction. Who are you to say that reproduction is the main purpose? Maybe pleasure IS the main purpose, and God/Allah/Evolution/Whatever just threw in reproduction as a nice side benefit. Sort of a "Have your cake and eat it, too" kinda thing.
Yes, most Americans are against homosexuality and gay marriage. I myself am. But it's merely because the culture we live in has been against it for so long.
Americans come from a HEAVY Puritan heritage. Hell, that's how we got our start. We are, quite possibly, one of the most anal and inhibited nations in the world. There's nudity on late night TV in other countries, and nudity on Saturday morning cartoons in Japan! We also lash out more than other countries, too. NYC and Japan are the same size. In 199X (I don't remember what year), Japan suffered something in the area of 500 murders. NYC suffered something like 100,000.
Americans need to get over our inhibitions and move on with life. We're so prude that the flash of an ass on anything other than HBO sends chills down our spine. The site of a woman's naked breast on Network television causes WEEKS...FORKING WEEKS....of news coverage and sends mothers into an outrage.
Homosexual marriage is going to happen regardless of what anyone, be it the American public, President Bush, or whomever, wants to do. I remember, in the Bill of Rights, something about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Yeah. Somethings, like murder or theft, should be outlawed because they hurt other people. Letting two guys get together and butt-hump? Or two girls get together and....um....do whatever lesbians do? It doesn't hurt anyone except the poor people with the psyches too fragile to realize that there IS a world out there beyond their living room.
PS - I didn't pass the gas, that was Jacen, before he left. It's just starting to get in here now.
PPS - FINALLY the sh!tstorm I've been waiting for. -=Cackles=-
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Post by piñata on Apr 7, 2004 10:44:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure it was Dolphins, not Pigs, but I could be mistaken. I do know Dolphins had sex for more than reproduction, though. I heard it was dolphins too. The thing about pigs is that their orgasm lasts for thirty minutes -- but whether they get any pleasure out of it I don't know. I hope so for their sake. I think it's not just limited to pigs and dolphins though -- I saw a monkey masturbating at the zoo a couple years ago. Anyway, you're right about the puritanism, Bass -- and the sad thing is, it's really hypocritical in a country whose first (i.e. most important) Amendment includes free speech and expression. Sometimes I envy Elfie -- even though he's forking cold up there.
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 7, 2004 11:03:32 GMT -5
What was that about "our own little Kerry" ;D Sort of a "Have your cake and eat it, too" kinda thing. I changed my mind because alicia pointed that it was wrong for gays not to have the same rights as straight people. So I said I agreed with gay marriage outside of church. But the more I thought about it, it didn't seem right so I looked up marriage. It was like a union between a man and a woman as husband and wife. So All I did was change the name. I believe They should have all the same rights... just not be married. They should have a civil union. The saying is " You can't have your cake and eat it too." lol
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Post by SuperBassX84 on Apr 7, 2004 16:34:15 GMT -5
I know that...if you reread the post, it says:
insinuating that God/Allah/Whatever is, in fact, allowing us, just this once, on this matter, to have our cake and eat it, too.
You and your pulling things out of context...jeese....^_^
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Lauren
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Post by Lauren on Apr 7, 2004 20:39:22 GMT -5
ehh... I am so tired.
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Post by kemykal on Apr 7, 2004 21:59:16 GMT -5
ill have to check with my friend on the pig/dolphin thing. i could have sworn it was pig cause he printed out the report and brought it to school. but ill ask him.
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