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Post by kemykal on Jul 12, 2004 23:39:55 GMT -5
*stares at red button*
all i need is a reason...
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Post by DarkAngel on Jul 13, 2004 14:38:25 GMT -5
Also, if there is some truth to these statistics, one still has to consider whether these deaths are a result of improper use and/or storage of these weapons? In properly trained hands, a handgun that is cared for and stored in an intelligently chosen location should be no danger to the holder or his family. Your missing the point Scythe. Of course in properly trained hands it will be safe. But how many people in America are actually properly trained? That is the real danger.
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Post by Elfie on Jul 13, 2004 15:48:51 GMT -5
Indeed. No one can inspect your home to make sure that you keep the bullets and the gun separate from each other, and even though it's something anyone who owns a gun has been told at some point, people disregard it everyday.
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Post by BraveFencerMusashi on Jul 13, 2004 18:15:21 GMT -5
What's the point of just criticizing people for not following what the government tells them? The government tells you not to share on P2P networks, but millions of people. The government tells people not to drink and drive, but thousands of people die each year from such behavior. It is not fair to criticize [gun owners] for not following what the government says. It is hypocritical and unfair.
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Post by Elfie on Jul 13, 2004 19:02:35 GMT -5
I didn't criticize them at all. I pointed out they disregard government regulations. That was all. I don't see any hypocrisy or unfairness in that. Did anyone else?
While we're on the subject though, I will criticize people who drink and drive because it's stupid and wrong. Anybody with half a brain, left brain or right brain, I don't care which Kemy, should know what an awful idea drinking and driving is. Same with being high and driving. I'm fine with drinking parties and most drug usage, though I don't do any of that myself, but endangering others because you're too stupid to call a forking cab or stay the night is something I think is totally fair game for criticism and in no way hypocritical. In fact, I'm saddened that you would even think to include drinking and driving with P2P Sharing and gun storage.
However, that still doesn't defeat the main point. Scythe pointed out that gun's in the proper hands are safe, but we have no way of knowing whose hands are proper, with the exception of police officers, who I for one trust, and personally, I'm not willing to risk giving guns to the wrong people and letting people die in the name of particular liberties and civil rights that I'm not so sure people even deserve in the first place.
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Post by stalin on Jul 14, 2004 23:11:31 GMT -5
That stat is legit Scythe. It was a famous one that Time (i think) released about 3 years ago. It kinda came as a big hit to the NRA when it was released. Anywho, those people that are hurt are not because of mishandling, but because the armed robber, who had no intention what so ever to use his weapon, gets sared and fires. Believe me, I have done research on this topic.
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Post by redorblue01 on Jul 16, 2004 9:00:27 GMT -5
After watching Elephant and Bowling for Columbine, I realized how scary guns really are. What scares me the most is how easy it is for someone to get one. To ban any type of gun would just be impossible but I think we can tighten up on gun control.
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Post by omeguz on Jul 20, 2004 3:34:10 GMT -5
Time to bring on THE ESSAY! Read and think: I wrote this...a year ago.
How do Values and Symbolism Influence American Gun Control?
April 2003
Word count: 1,859 (without footnotes or bibliography)
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. -Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Each year, an estimate 381 people die because of gun violence in Germany. It’s 255 in France, 168 in Canada, 68 in the United Kingdom, 65 in Australia, 39 in Japan. There are 11,127 deaths caused by gun violence in the United States of America. Although the US does have a larger population than any of these countries, their total number of gun deaths is 19 times higher than all the other countries added together. There are numerous possible reasons for the high number of gun deaths in America, (see Appendix 1) some claiming that guns are easily available, or blaming America’s violent history of revolution and war. Many people are crying out for stricter gun control in the United States. Many people feel that stricter gun control would strongly help reduce gun deaths. For example, the majority of respondents answered “yes” to the question “Does America need stricter gun control?” in a questionnaire at the Frankfurt International School. How do specific values and symbols influence American gun control? Values related to power, the right to bear arms and self defense make this a heavily debated issue. In addition, the legitimate use of guns for hunting makes it harder to restrict firearms. The sad truth is that the US society treasures the right to bear arms so much, that it makes it nearly impossible to control firearms in the United States, and thereby reduce gun violence. A gun’s symbolism reaches over vast possibilities. Power is the most commonly associated symbol with guns. Just before John W. Hinkley Jr. loaded his gun and attempted to assassinate the president of the United States, he wrote “See that living legend over there? With one little squeeze of the trigger I can put that person at my feet, moaning and groaning, and pleading with god. This gun gives me…power. If I wish, the president will fall, and the world will look at me with disbelief, all because I own an expensive gun”. Guns provide a sensation of power. It doesn’t matter if they end up being used or not, one feels more secure with the knowledge that you can take someone’s life with the twitch of a finger. Television and movies help to promote this feeling. Hundreds of movies depict human beings being mutilated or gruesomely slaughtered again and again. Estimates suggest that the average American child has watched over 10,000 people die on TV shows alone. The U.S. TV show “COPS” shows policemen on duty. A camera team follows officers around and films their actions. Many times the officers raid buildings, knock people unconscious and even fire on people. This glorification of violence, gun use, and masculinity has a serious impact on anyone watching it. Many Americans claim that the right to bear arms can be found in the second amendment, arguing that it is every Americans right to own a firearm. In theory, it is. But one must not apply 200 year old laws to the modern world. During the American Revolution, it was necessary that citizens were prepared to defend the town at any given moment. So called “Minutemen” earned their name by being ready in a single minute. Nowadays, it is obvious that no country or army is going to invade America, or fight a guerilla war inside the United States. The army has taken on the role of the “well regulated militia”. Because it is a right, and a freedom for Americans to buy guns, firearms are easily available, and unbelievably cheap. In the United States firearms are often carried on the person for self protection. Many people carry small pistols on their person for self defense, and a secure feeling. A woman, training to annihilate shop window manikins with her sniper rifle at the “Virginia State Militia Target range” was quoted saying “What I like about guns? Well, if someone invades my property, I can immediately shoot them, I don’t have to call the police. Why do people call the police? Because they have guns, so if I have guns, I can skip them, and go straight to the shooting part”. A fair point, but is it right to ignore authority, and take law enforcement into your own hands? Who decides if the person wanted to enter the house and slaughter the family, or if it was the new neighbor, coming to borrow some milk? What’s left of the “invader” will be the only true witness. Sadly enough, the easily concealed and very effective handguns, such as the popular automatic pistol “Glock 17”, are the criminal’s weapon of choice. It has been estimated that there are about 202 million firearms in America. What are all these weapons used for? As previously mentioned, self defense and crime account for a large amount of the uses, but there is one craze that plays a large role in the gun control issue: hunting. Hunting and other shooting sports account for large amounts of gun sales and usage, (nearly 26 million hinting licenses were issued in 1975) and most rifles owned in America are used for hunting. But what is it about hand guns? No one uses a 9mm semi automatic handgun to kill a rabbit, so the question arises, what the millions of handguns are used for. The same issue can be found with machine guns, only that these are not used for self defense, they do not fit in a purse, and are not all too practical to fight off an intruder. Machine guns, usually firing ca 80 bullets in 2 seconds (depending on the weapon) are most definitely not used for hunting, chiefly because the hunted animal would be simply blown to smithereens if fired upon with, for example, the most popular civilian machine gun, the M16. Naturally there is also no reasonable and legitimate use for the rocket launcher that is often attached to the bottom of the M16. The unbelievable part is that it is perfectly legal for anyone to walk into a supermarket, such as K-Mart, or Wal-Mart, and buy a semi-automatic machine gun with a rocket launcher. The Columbine incident triggered a whole new question about what influences young people’s perception of what behavior is acceptable and what is not. It is commonly known that many teenagers (male and female alike) enjoy computer games, and there has been much controversy about the contents of these games. There are more harmless games, such as strategy or adventure games, and there are more violent action games, which are causing the controversy. The game genre “action” contains a wide variety of specific “flavors” of games, the most violent being the FPS (First Person Shooter). In FPS games, you control a character in first person, and steer the character through the level, annihilating anything that comes into your path. Newest game technology makes it possible for the more debatable games to display the killings in gruesome detail. Sometimes, game enthusiasts are influenced to the point of being absorbed in the game. Many players lose contact with reality, and live their life slaughtering each other across the World Wide Web. As absurd as it may sound, slaughtering each other on the internet is actually quite harmless. The key question is whether playing these violent games actually could cause violent behavior, whether some people may become so obsessed with the game that they no longer can tell the difference between fantasy and reality and there may be a danger that they would actually go out and kill someone. There is a huge difference between playing a game for fun and going and shooting your school friends and teachers. People who become totally absorbed in these games lose the boundary, the inhibition, the fear of handling guns. Or could it be that violent people are drawn to violent games because of the power that the guns symbolize and playing these games did not affect their choice to use guns for violence. Or are guns in computer games a good way of getting rid of your aggression so that you can vent your anger on people in the computer game who do not exist and not even think about assaulting your schoolmates.
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Post by omeguz on Jul 20, 2004 3:34:59 GMT -5
Columbine changed the public’s attitude towards gun control. The gun began to symbolize something else. A gun user had been seen as someone who needed the gun for protection or to hunt. Lower class citizens (mainly African Americans) were portrayed to be frequently engaged with guns, chiefly using them for illegal activity. It was ignored when a high class Caucasian used a firearm in an illegitimate way. The more shattering the news of two upper-middle class Caucasians butchering their friends and teachers at Columbine High School. After Columbine, gun ownership was more frowned upon and generally one had more respect for guns. People we willing to make sacrifices to insure the correct handling of their weapon, locking them up and educating children about them. Many went to the extent of banning weapons from the house, declaring they were a threat to their family. In conclusion, proportionally more people die of gun related violence in the US than in all other countries summed up. Although Canada has a similar rate of gun ownership, the United States has dramatically more victims of gun violence. Specifically American values and symbols related to guns account for the difference. In particular the facade of power and superiority, the belief in the inalienable second amendment, and the convinced state of mind that a gun in the handbag will solve all problems make it nearly impossible to reduce and control guns in the U.S. The second amendment might grant the citizens of the United States of America the right to bear arms, but there must be limits to rights. A perfect example is the first amendment, which grants free speech. When someone runs into an office building and shouts “FIRE, FIRE” without a reason, causing the fire department to come, they are arrested. According to the second amendment advocates, this person is being denied his rights, and must be released immediately. But this will not happen, because a civilization needs to have strict rules that clamp down on people trespassing the reasonable humane limits. That is what must happen with the gun control issue, being allowed to own a gun is a right, and it should not be infringed, but there is a point where a gun is not a sporting utility, nor a weapon for self defense, but an instrument, made solely for the purpose of taking human lives. Crossing the boundary from using your rifle to hunt deer to using you rifle to hunt humans is more than illegal, it is inexcusable and appalling. Bibliography Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moore. DVD. Dog Eat Dog Productions, 2002 Devore, Cynthia DiLaura. Kids & Guns. Minnesota: Abdo & Daughters, 1994 Dolan, Edward F. Jr. Gun Control: A Decision for Americans. London:Franklin Watts, 1982. Hawkes, Nigel. Issues…Gun Control. New York: Aladdin Books Ltd., 1988. [My name taken out here]. “American Gun Control.” Survey. 27 March 2003 Moore, Michael. “A Wonderful World”. 2002. < www.michaelmoore.com >. ( 22 March 2003 ). Otfinosky, Steve. Gun Control: Is It a Right or a Danger to Bear Arms?. New York: Twenty-First Century Books, 1993. O’Sullivan, Carol. Gun Control: Distinguishing Between Fact and Opinion. San Diego: Greenhaven Press Inc., 1989 Sugarman, Josh. “ The NRA Is Right: But We Still Need to Ban Handguns.” Washington Monthly. June 1987. Woods, Geraldine. A First Book – The Right to Bear Arms. London: Franklin Watts, 1986. Appendix 1: www.bradycampaign.org/press/related_documents/112901b.pdf
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Post by omeguz on Jul 20, 2004 3:36:17 GMT -5
Wow - sorry for TRIPPLE posting, but the word limit...limited me.
So - not that I expect anyone to read all that - but there's my POV. Maybe check out the key ideas/conclusion.
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Post by Elfie on Jul 20, 2004 9:19:48 GMT -5
It's an interesting look at it, to say the least. I wonder what proponents of keeping guns legal would say to that.
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