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Post by DarkAngel on Apr 23, 2004 13:14:01 GMT -5
Bush is indirectly that way, he wont publicy admit that he is targeting them. However, i dont feel that it would be wrong if he did, because 99% of the terrorists attacking the United States are of Arab decent, theres no denying that. So theres not much wrong in targeting Arab countries. The one thing that bugs me the most about the war in Iraq, is that Chaney is the president of Haliburton, and it was awarded a multi-billion dollar contract for Iraq...conflict on interest? Just maybe...And by no means am I leaving out Clinton for dodging, if he would have been a wartime president, he would have taken criticism as well, but he didn't.
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Post by SuperBassX84 on Apr 23, 2004 13:56:46 GMT -5
Clinton did lead a war, fools. Remember Milosevic? Kosovo? Etc? Yeah. Oh well. Just saying he did have some wars of his own.
And Piñata, I'm very disappointed in you. Comparing Bush to Hitler is no where near a competent or accurate comparison. Not only are they from completely different times with completely different views, but they are completely different people. Bush doesn't want the extermination of an entire race of people, just the ones who are responsible for the attacks on INTERNATIONAL targets. I do agree that he wasn't as good a leader as Hitler, and it's unlikely he was as smart, but that doesn't mean he's a complete dolt. Regardless, comparing Bush to Hitler is as foolish as comparing me to, say, Jesus. There are some similarities, but in general we're two entirely different people.
I dare you to give me examples of how Hitler and Bush are similar. Please.
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Post by Smorgasbord on Apr 23, 2004 15:40:08 GMT -5
Silly optimist.
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Post by Static Burn on Apr 23, 2004 17:51:50 GMT -5
Well stated, Bass.
So far as I can tell, once Iraq has a stable oil market they'll sell it to whoever wants to buy it, not just the US. And, so far as I've heard, Saudi Arabia pretty much hates us but sells us oil because we need to buy it and they need to sell it. So making Iraq friendly toward us really has little to do with the oil market.
And, if Bush really wanted to exterminate Arabs, I think he would have just let Hussein do it for him, he seemed to be doing a pretty good job of it.
As for Elfie's comment about the economy, that is true. The President has some control over the economy, but to boost it burdens the government's finances. Pretty much, I posted that point to refute the argument that Bush 'destroyed the economy'.
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Post by Elfie on Apr 23, 2004 17:58:11 GMT -5
As for the 99% of terrorist attacks being made by Arabs, the United States' has conveniently turned people like Timothy McVeigh into "deranged lunatics" instead of "terrorists", even though right after the Oklahoma City bombings the general consensus was that he was a terrorist.
As for selling Iraqi oil to whoever wants it, if that's true, then why is the US only granting contracts to countries that supported the war. It hardly seems fair. After all, this isn't a conquest that holds the ideology of "to the victor go the spoils", its a liberation, and that means that the Iraqis should have the liberty to sell their supplies on a fully free market, not just who the US allows, and yet that's not what's happening at all.
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Post by piñata on Apr 23, 2004 18:00:52 GMT -5
I dare you to give me examples of how Hitler and Bush are similar. Please. This is gonna be a long post. First of all, they both used fear as a weapon against the people to keep them in line. Also, they both exerted undue control over the media and other informational outlets to cast themselves in a better (and ultimately false) light. And, they both had governmental policies of censorship, invasion of privacy, and other blatant violations of civil rights that still, defying all logic or reason, somehow managed to become law. Not to mention, they both willfully violated international law by invading countries under false pretenses, with the intention (proven in Hitler's case, and IMHO probable in Bush's case) of committing mass genocide. As well as the fact that they both enjoyed ridiculously high approval ratings and/or military recruitment rates for much of their regime, especially considering that the people should have turned against them at some point. And we can't forget, they both discriminated against minorities (Jews and blacks in Hitler's case, and Arabs and gays in Bush's case). Last, but not least, Hitler is believed to be the "Histor" referenced as the -- I think third, but it might be second, I'm doing all this from memory (so if I got anything else wrong feel free to correct me too, but it looks pretty sound to me) -- Anti-Christ in the prophecies of Nostradamus. "W. Bush" looks suspiciously like "Mabus", the name of the next, and final, Anti-Christ who will bring about the end of the world if the prophecies hold true.
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(LK)
Artificer
Posts: 733
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Post by (LK) on Apr 23, 2004 18:12:10 GMT -5
i don't see how W. Bush looks like Mabus, but ok...
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Post by Smorgasbord on Apr 23, 2004 18:31:49 GMT -5
*blinks* Better explained than I could have done. The only thing I could think fo was their could-be-called fanatical patriotism...
Getting just a tiny bit off topic here... Have you ever noticed how incredibly similar Stalin, Hitler, and Hussein look?
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(LK)
Artificer
Posts: 733
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Post by (LK) on Apr 23, 2004 18:32:57 GMT -5
ah yes, they both did alot of that
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Post by Elfie on Apr 23, 2004 18:38:28 GMT -5
Nostredamus scares me. What about free will? We should be able to change the future, so how can that be accurate?
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(LK)
Artificer
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Post by (LK) on Apr 23, 2004 19:17:47 GMT -5
i think they just disregarded his stuff to be like commentator crap
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Post by DarkAngel on Apr 24, 2004 22:20:34 GMT -5
I personally just think that that stuff is a bunch of garbage, its probably just all made up, and stuff that happens can be taken in different ways...
@bass, ok sorry i forgot about Kosivo, but that was a UN supported war. It was mostly run by the UN, also, the Genocide there was more obvious then the one in Iraq, but not as bad....ahhh im contradicting myself im gonna go now...
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Post by SuperBassX84 on Apr 26, 2004 0:32:56 GMT -5
Actually, DA, Kosovo was NOT a UN sponsored war. It's on of the few reasons I respect Clinton - he didn't give a good God damn about the UN. He went in and did what he had to do.
Piñata 1. Fear is a weapon used by everyone from parents to teachers to bosses to dictators. To use it as a means for support of such an argument is not quite feasible, because, as stated, everyone uses it. It's why detentions are handed out, why people get their pay cut. It's why children get spanked or grounded. It's common. You might as well compare Devo to Hitler in such a respect.
2. I don't know about the censoring or control over media. It's quite possible that some stations and such merely support Bush. Is that so hard to think? If you can cite examples I'd be more inclined to agree.
3. I have to agree with you on the invasion of privacy and censorship type stuff. Bush is a fine president, but when Janet Jackson's boob gets a month of media coverage and Howard Stern (who's toned down over the years IMO) gets banned on a whole bunch of stations, you need to back off. Patriot Act = Obsolete. Figure out something better.
4. Bush is not trying to commit mass genocide, so drop that argument. That's as ludicrous as accusing Canada of plotting world domination - it's just not happening. As far as false pretenses go, Bush's information was only as good as the sources. He and his advisors trusted the sources and the information he was being given. In the same situation, you'd have done the same thing. It's also possible he had information not made public (so as not to start a panic), like during the Cuban Missle Crisis.
5. If people think the war's unjust then they will turn against him. Take Vietnam for instance. People didn't like it and made their voices heard. However, the war's over and the plans to pull out are in place. They are determined to have it go well, so we'll wait and see.
6. As far as I know Bush hasn't discriminated against Arabs, and has actually tried to defend many of them ("Islam is a peaceful religion, etc"). I do have to agree with the gays part, but I suspect that was more campaign move and less actual discrimination against them.
7. Nostradamus is a load of crap. Load. Of. Crap. Nostradamites often thought of Saddam as this "Mabus," because Mabus, spelled backwards is Subam, and if you flip the b horizontally, double it, and change the u to an a (after flipping the whole word horizontally, as noted), then you come up with Saddam. Right. I can change "Kerry" to "Killer" just as easily. Now "Mabus" has become W. Bush, because first we have to forget that Bush has a first name. Then we have to flip the M vertically, change the a to a period, add a space and an h on the end. Right. That makes sense.
PS - the passage about the two brothers torn apart by chaos etc. etc. seen so much after 9/11. That was a fake.
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Post by Elfie on Apr 26, 2004 1:26:57 GMT -5
I agree with Bass.
Everything you said is logical. Sometimes your original assumptions bother me though.
1. Fear is not used by everyone. Machiavelli identifies two types of leaders, those who lead by fear and those who lead by love. Leading through love is having a postive agenda that people want to vote for. Leading through fear is telling people what will happen if they don't listen to so that they'll want to vote for you. Which fits the president better?
5. People aren't thinking though. We went and got the evil-doers. Things like "exit strategy", "peaceful transfer of power" and "prolonged democracy" don't mean anything. The masses are stupid. We got a bad man who was killing his own people. I must say, its a great thing that we got a bad man who was killing his own people, but let's not forget, we started off looking for a bad man who was getting ready to launch nukes at us.
6. I'd agree, except that's his only line. He could at least diversify. Perhaps he show a bit of knowledge about the actual religion (for reference, Mohammed did actually lead an army against Mecca, which is not quite peaceful, but on the whole Islam is a very moral religion). I don't see that as an actual defense of arabs, but as the token soundbyte for the camera that makes him seem fair.
You already pointed to the Patriotic Act as obsolete. Who did the President round up after Sept. 11 and continue to hold to this day, nearly three years later, without any of the protection of their own Constitution?
You know what though? That three points out of seven that I have issues with, and that's not even saying I'm right. The other three make perfect sense to me and help to put this into perspective.
I think at some point we should get someone who hasn't commented here to go through everything said and just break this all down into the various points and refutations we've had. It would make these last four pages a lot clearer, eh?
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Post by DarkAngel on Apr 26, 2004 9:54:55 GMT -5
That's as ludicrous as accusing Canada of plotting world domination - it's just not happening Thats what YOU guys think...d'i mean, Elfie, THEIR ON TO US!
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Post by SuperBassX84 on Apr 26, 2004 10:13:54 GMT -5
Elfie - 1. I agree, there are love leaders and fear leaders. The point I was trying to make is that every leader, sooner or later, uses fear at least once. Think about it. Has there ever been, in all of history, a leader who NEVER used fear? That was the point I was trying to make. Though, as stated, I do concede that some leaders rarely use it while others, like Hitler, used it all the time.
5. I also agree that the masses are stupid. Hell, I'll be the first person to admit that. I'm a firm believer that people are stupid. But even stupid people will know when something's wrong, as noted by increasing opposition to the war/occupation over the past few years. It's not enough to force the president to act, but there are plenty of dissentors.
6. Another good point. He could diversify his argument, he could make different statements. But the point is that he has showed support for the majority of Islam, and until I see evidence of direct acts or speeches againts Islam and Arabs as a whole, I'll maintain my belief that he's not discriminating against them, just not using more than a handful of phrases.
Besides, it's Bush...catchphrases are his thing. Like "evil-doers" and "Axis of Evil" and stuff.
DA - You sure you didn't mean that the other way around, or do you WANT us to know you're attempting to plan a failing invasion?
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Post by Elfie on Apr 26, 2004 18:53:55 GMT -5
And to agree some more with Bass:
1. Perhaps I was just drawing on the Canadian example. Compared to American politics, Canadian politics tend to use a lot less less fear, which is why why president Bush has struck me as a bit of a fearmonger, but then again, that is an American trait in politicians (see entire Cold War, which is another interesting story).
6. Yes, he's showing support for Islam, which I respect, but I think he sees people of Arab descent to be a higher risk to the United States than people of non-Arab descent, which is a story with two sides and which I certainly don't fault him for being decisive on, though I can certainly understand why many disagree.
Anyway, Bush is not Hitler. Although I am afraid that another major terrorist attack might transform him for the worse.
I've got to say Bass, I like what you've done here. I've mostly been refuting what I believe to be falsehoods so far, but I think I might want to draw up an actual case supporting a candidate and just lay the points down so we can deal with them.
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(LK)
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Post by (LK) on Apr 26, 2004 18:59:44 GMT -5
besides, Hitler was angry, bush isn't.
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Post by SuperBassX84 on Apr 26, 2004 20:31:44 GMT -5
Make whatever case you please, and we'll deal with the points as necessary. -=Is ready=-
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Post by Elfie on Apr 27, 2004 22:12:14 GMT -5
Alright, here is the first area of argument:
The economy:
1. Under Bush we have had a recession. To combat it he proposed a tax cut for the wealthy. Moral issues with this aside, the rich are the most likely to spend money outside of the country. I'm not saying that a rich person would neccessarily, but playing the probabilites, a middle class family is not as likely to have the resources to put a tax cut towards something from out of country, like a vacation, or even just ordering exotic things. A middle class family is also less likely to put the money into stocks. In fact, a middle or lower end family would be the most likely to put the money back into the economy, which was the aim of the tax cut. Yet it was awarded to those who would be least likely to use it for its intended purposes. Now fortunately, economic indicators, for the most part are looking up, but the president is still only producing a fifth of the jobs per month he told us that his plan would.
2. In addition, the Bush presidency is running a 2.7 trillion dollar deficit. This means that the US loses 900,000 dollars every minute. Frankly, I could understand a deficit after Sept. 11, but the US should be reducing its deficit annually, but its growing from year to year. If they were 87 billion over (the cost for Iraq), it would be understandable because the war is a uncontrolled variable, but the deficit is 31 times that! This is making me start to wonder if the president could run a balanced budget in peace time. Being a tax cut and spend president is very popular. It gives the country the best of both worlds when they ignore deficit spending, but running such a reckless deficit is a huge risk for a nation such as America, and the world too, because our money is based on the greenback. Don't think the world market isn't noticing America's money troubles either. Canada's dollar has shot to a thirty year high in the recent months, going from 63 cents American a couple years ago to almost breaking 80 cents, which is a huge difference.
3. Finally, jobs are still low. In fact, the most recent indicators, as even FOX News grudgingly admitted, show that unemployment is up, not down. Clearly something must be done to create jobs, not just outsource them.
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